Jan 18 - Jan 26th, 2005

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:32:11 -0800
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:32:11 -0800, Ed
Hi Rachel, I just just got your next email as well and read just the 1st part of it so far and so some of this below might be redundant but yeah - I agree - debate is just debate - yes also I feel I give people a service by showing contra - too much sugary sweet diengenuosity out there already. My history's a bit different - was always a "good boy" growing up - just last 5 10 years I realized I got all these "friends" but I can’t "talk" to them, so wanted new friends that I can say anything to and met tons of people but yeah pissed most of these "new friends" off by being real - trying to engage, you know, showing them maybe the other side or asking them what's really going on for them, reading in between the lines, facial expressions and confronting them on it. thought it's like we're all friends right?? Wrong!!! So, yeah I can relate. Been laying low lately. Really really really like your feedback & how you engage. Really look forward to being your friend. Looking forward to this next letter. meanwhile this is what I wrote in response to this previous note. Then I copied all this system shit I randomly dug out of my notebook . Some of this stuff I haven't even looked at for 10 15 years! Just copied some of it verbatim. Love to pick it apart with you sometime. And about pickles & onions, just got an email from my brother (who's a biology professor/researcher) thatcurcumin is in pickles & is good for you... Good for preventing Alzheimer’s.....
Thank you so so much for your feedback. It's really really nice to be validated.
Yes i know how that feels when something just feels right. It really touches me if I have touched you. BUT - never forget, I may have made an error too, don't just accept everything I write. In fact, I sometimes have this intuition about things and there was something in my letter to you that I didn't get the feel was 100% it. But i just wanted to ship it off. So there probably IS something in there that isn't thought all the way to the end. Please feel free to be my critic. (Nevertheless keep sending the positive feedback as well. I need that) Ha! Systems theory... If you dig up something about it I'd like to know....
Many years ago while traveling on the west coast I met someone, who let me stay at her house. So I met her roommate and we talked. He was studying naturopathy and we got into this neet discussion and he said there should be something like systems theory. (about ANY kind of system not just the human body) So anyway I never saw him before or since & forgot his name but over the last I don't know how many years I just sort ofcontemplated it. Lets see Hey! I found my notebook!! you are welcome to come over sometime & flip through it- -it's totally disorganized - I'll type up some random stuff...
"to choose is to simultaneously sacrifice the unchosen" surviving subsystems respond to that which provides them with - acknowledgment, appreciation & accomplishment of their internal purpose (birds of a feather flock together) subsystems that do not naturally respond to that which feeds them as above will be malnourished and not working as a complete being (the living dead) those that have an ability to change the way theynaturally respond, or those that change their internal purpose, both to suit the environment, will have a higher success rate. ones unable to mutate or find a supportive environment will either starve as above (hence there is very little influence on the system from the weakened subsystem, thus being unable to support even other similar subsystems causing them also to starve - this being a kind of inertial effect since there is very little energy in this mode of purpose to even be able to recognize itself and give itself support - even to the point of "the sleeping giant"). or the other possibility is that one subsystem can accurately be aware of all this -and have enough faith in it's own assessment of the situation to totally deplete it's resources in a successful attempt to initiate change. (of course it is possible that the attempt is unsuccessful but if these subsystems have been evolving in various systems for numerous lifetimes (of thesubsystems) it is likely that the successful type survive) change can be made by awakening the sleeping giant or by realizing an inferior purpose to change the system in order to achieve the higher purpose. Contained within this inferior purpose may be goals in contradiction to the higher purpose. (often this causes a view change in time)
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Systems respond to an off balance by following a sequence of states back to some balance. It may end up stable at a state different than original. If the disturbance is an excess of ^^^ and if growth has restrictions or internal effects then the resultant state will often be similar to the original but larger in content. Such is the case with most chemical systems and ancient economic systems;
1. The interesting thing is that the only physical plane input and output of the system of ancient systems was sunlight reflected light and radiated heat. Perhaps some non physical influence as well. So perhaps this system of systems was slightly off balance enough to bring us here today as we are still attempting to maintain balance.
2. influence today is sun's energy (stable), present and past energies (depleting) - fossil fuels. eventually society will extern {??} this and go toward balance. yet it seems intuitive to me but maybe it's my mathematical and scientific background but things on this level of reality need an infinite time to settle down.
3. interactions with other systems also maintains balance. [wherever interaction takes place we define an edge, hence no interactions occur interious {??}] each SUBSYSTEM SETTLES INTO IT'S FUNCTION OF THE LARGER AS organs of an evolved animal, evolving species of an ecosystem...
5. all systems have subsystems and are subsystems. composed of smaller & make up larger systems. interactions among systems occur in such a way to maintain (1) in the system the compose of e . where this interaction occurs we define edge.
6. waste it is necessary to throw out redundant and minor use. Seek higher level info that can derive and is the basis of smaller info
7. self sustaining systems must sustain themself, have some mechanics of protection of it's structure ( traditions... religions... guns profit {some word i can't read} satisfaction magnification)
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{being that i got a degree in physics I was trying to get to a point where I use numbers.} {time, realness, edges all based on views. Where views are some sort of porthole of interaction / observation of one system by another, obviously systems that have no such interaction whatsoever will not get any nourishment, the larger the number of these view portholes the more likely that the system will survive (hence, exist today)} time is marked by events. if 2 identical events occur without any other event separating them they are the same event. for what isolates them - what defines them as separate? even empty space - even no event - is an event that can draw distinctions. in between two identical events exists at least one event that is not identical. the similarity of 2 events relates to the number of ways they can be considered identical. the number of views that perceive an event define it's quality of reality magnitude. more views perceive 2 adjacent dissimilar events than 2 similar ones hence more real and assuming equal chance of event difference & linear array of view distribution: perceived event differences occur at a rate proportionate to the difference.
depth of view: if 2 events occur closer than the depth of view they are not distinguishable regardless of how dissimilar. (so we have 2 opposing measures of realness: local edge differences and distances between events. most real must be somehow a weave of larger oscillations made of smaller ones) exactness of cycle saves for the view in the scope but does not effect as many views hence not as real [but a good tool of the depth level] different tools for different levels -similarity of tools {I actually made a computer program - beats me where it is that showed that the most likely view magnitudes would be cycles of 3 & 7 and sometimes 4, that's all with many assumptions ofcourse, don't count on it tooo much...}
*********************************to achieve change or maintain control; one must feed the needs with recognition in rhythm - so they respond & are aware of where they get this need met.
{I sometimes wrote these little blurbs....}
repetition: "grains grind crystal rhythm. rocks shift to new digression": without major {more recognizable} changes {of view} minor changes will erode structure. {Basically says that if something is to exist over time it can not be stagnant}
Being sort of metaphysically oriented, I was doing some stuff with the 4 directions (earth air fire & water) to give myself a sort of basis some sort of compartments to understand things by. To find these "elements" in all things. Please, you are welcome to find other 'elements' or dispute any of this.... or elaborate on as well....
water is the sea of possibilities
fire is the action of choice
earth is the chosen (from the sea of possibilities)
air is the unchosen (giving necessary space for the chosen to grow & develop)
{order of creation}
water triggers growth loosening tight order for purpose of expression and a worthwhile chance of continuance
water: gives faith in external support to come. Intuitive signal to start to dissolve protection and release order (stored consciousness)
every decision, every action of will (fire) costs sacrifice.
air space: When free to error a system grows. When Alteration does not jeopardize survival. When risky could shake balance out of it's set of states.
playfulness acquires knowledge. (free to try out different possibilities)
{in contrast to allowing space}observation destroys sensitive creativity ( seed must be covered to grow)
observation: establishes control by destroying new sprouts only more conventional forms survive.
{I can't find it but I had something about how fear prevents growth, forces system to go to seed stage, in fear there is very limited free space to experiment & grow}
{from another place in notes}certainty vs creativitycertainty: structure in program - considers random as part of probability correlations {does not have space for creativity}
creativity: break from program {random is considered} uncertain trying {in yet another place in my notes something similar, where tight has little free space- little freedom to error, and loose has plenty of room for trials }
info inertia: information tied up in form. time of info exchange per information. if supper saturated reacts immediately to seed information (see crystal below) if loose & flexible fills in gaps like cushion. finds use for all. slow reaction if any but costs no entropy for multiple paths sensitive views
crystal: fast response to specific information. {like a fascist regime} generic response to all information, recognized into large categories
{loose}: pathways "contemplate" info - slow response {a 3rd possibility -the non possibility- is, like talking to a rock} entropy absorbs information/ stimulus. no response. does not recognize/ not indistinguishable, usable {all this had to do with the air element - the space, or lack thereof the communication, reaction or response of systems}
truth is trivial subset of reality, that is consistent ( identical & ternal {??can't read notes}) harmony-timing (when it's "true") muldain costats of reality {can't read my writing there & not certain of what I meant}
this was all just bits & pieces in random order - love you my new friend! and as everpickles !!!! Ed

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:43:11 +0000, RachelWow. This stuff on systems theory is rocking my world. Chewing it over.-Rachel
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:01:38 -0800, Ed
Hi Rachel
First of all I want to ditto your words about debate and disagreement. I not only agree I, like you, think that that should only be helpful to others but have experienced it not being received that way - to say the least. But I can't just pretend either so I just sort of make my point the best way I can. Or sometimes just remain silent. All this makes me feel distant from people, those beings I always thought I care about and are here to serve. So anyway, I was being very concerned about disagreeing with you. Thank you for your openness and honest communication. I am sorry it has caused you problems in thepast. I just want you to know that I appreciate it. Oh and by the way, if you didn't even hear about set theory your high school wasn't worth shit anyway. Very fundamentalist area? Where do you come from? I have a friend who now lives in Connecticut around Woodstock area & it sounds that way. And there's so many other things that happen athigh school that you might be better off to have missed it all. This old guy just told me he reconnected with his high school sweetheart and they are now married. What I (not so obviously) am saying is to consider yourself lucky to have missed high school. It is the source of a lot of emotions for most people. Not that they are all bad but I feel tied up by all that. Part of me still considers what my high school classmates would think of this or that. Consider yourself lucky to be freed from that control.
BTW If what I read is correct, I want you to know without a shadow of a doubt that in this case you were in the right in the school was wrong. If I was in more of a position a power in this world I would gather up information from you about that school and try to fire some principles or something. You were doing exactly what a young mind issuppose to do: question. If you were too smart for them it is their duty to try to find someone who can reach your level. If they can't, OK, nothing's perfect but they are not suppose to treat you like some sort of criminal! I am only hearing one side, of course. I, like you, usually try to take the devil's advocate & try to imagine how the schoolmight of felt. I don't know, you are older now, maybe when you were young you were somehow annoying??? I don't know did you have a very squeaky and penetrating voice or something?? I mean you know how kids can be annoying sometimes, were you like that at all?? Well I don't know but since you were young, it may very well be the case that you did something, out of immaturity, to make matters worse for your case.What I am saying is that: THAT'S NOT THE POINT. They are suppose to know how children are. I mean they are PAID to. They are taking taxpayers money under the guise that they are developing young minds. Not that they produce morons and kick out the geniuses! The school's function is to serve the young and help there minds grow. This iswhere the bulk of real estate taxes go. They robbed the public blind! I want you to know with out a shadow of a doubt from someone that was an adult during that time that they were the criminals and not you. It seems to me that your school was doing the antithesis of their real function: trying to stuff everyone's mind into a box and the ones thatdon't fit they amputate. Where were you parents??? Did they try to fight against the school. They were on your side right??? They better have been. The fucking school systems in this country are going to hell in a bucket! Damm it all. I'm glad my daughter goes to school in Europe.
OK, that being said let me say a few things. I purposely never mentioned my daughter to you or when talking about death about the experience of my father dieing in my arms. I didn't want to bring out any trappings of age. I didn't want that to get in the way of ourinteraction, that's all, sorry, I hope you understand. I want to be equal with you, of course, that's all anyone can ever be, but there's this big respect thing going around, I mean we have even been writing about how it's been going around for a while now too. And age difference is one of the biggest forms of respect going. If someone respects me I can maybe get them to do things for me, I could get an ego 'kick' out of it too. But I never would get that feeling of equalness with them, that feeling where I am free to say anything and that they are also free to, too ... etc etc. And that's the feeling I want to keep having with you. But I had to make that above statement to you, for your sake, I hope I am wrong but I am afraid no adult at that time, has. So, the long and short of it is that at that young age you were right about how to refine and strengthen ideas. You were clearly not wrong and you need to know that you weren't. Besides that though, please please please continue treating me like an equal. Please, Thank you.
OK one more thing, I don't know where this fundamentalism comes from, probably more likely to be from the devil than from God if from either of those two but God certainly wants us to question. First of all, well, this may seem blasphemous but assume that you are God. OK, OK it is impossible for us mere humans to fully grok what that couldpossibility mean, yes, yes, yes BUT for the sake of the discussion say that you are the one that has all those characteristics that they attribute to God. OK, infinitely loving, infinitely knowing etc etc. So there is this mere human down there that is questioning about you. Imagine that she is doing exactly what you were doing at that school.How would it make you feel?? What would you do about it???? You probably wouldn't mind much would you. Actually you would probably get a kick out of it. Wouldn't you??? You'd probably like it a whole lot more than these overly respectful types, that maybe would bore you if anything. I mean if you had infinite power what the fuck would you need the ego boost that comes from that??? Give me a break! I think that God would want some sort of communion, interaction with us, They would want us open to them and they would in some way appreciate you challenging them. But then you probably thought of that a million times. So then let me say this is coming from one that understands why the ancients in the Bible would fall down in the presence of God.I know why first hand. I have experienced, how infinitely more real that reality is than the one in which we notice, see, hear, touch, smell. The Being there is so much more real and intense and powerful that when experienced there is nothing one can do but fall down or run. I guess that goes as a very strong form of respect. It is not that God WANT'Sus to respect or fall down, probably would prefer someone to stand in their presence, but there is just not much else us mere humans CAN do. I do not see how any question of yours could possibility bother God, or anyone that is truly doing the work of God. If the question could be thought up by you then it is valid to ask it. God want's you to question Their existence (BTW I refuse to use a male, female and certainly not a neuter pronoun, for God, all that's left is the plural, doesn't mean that God is not one) or ask any question, poke any hole in any concept about Them you possibly can. Not only do They want it, They love you for it. Not only Them but anyone truly doing God's work. I experienced the same Being that those fundamentalists supposedly follow and I say this. Furthermore, what I say about your school I say about them. They are giving God a bad rap. they wouldn't know God if they saw Them. And they probably never will.
I really expect to never take this sort of voice with you again but while here there is one more thing I need from you. We started this set of correspondences when I wrote on the day of the funeral of your good friend that killed herself. In this last email to me you mentioned
"... if I'd stayed I'd have killed myself for sure..." I don't know people use the phrase "kill myself" all the time as a figure of speech. So perhaps it's just a saying but for me to continue corresponding there is one thing I need from you. I want you to email me back and promise me that you will never consider suicide ever again. If nothing else do it for me. I put a lot of energy into these emails, and I really like doing it but I do for you. There are many facets to every human interaction, many of which we are nottotally conscious of. There are many directions that this, or anything, could lead to. I in no way wish to control that flow in any way but one: You must promise me never to consider "killing yourself" under any circumstances, whatsoever. You can do anything else and I mean it. You can serve me shit for breakfast. You can say that God wears pink diapers, anything. But just this one thing I need. Sorry to be so strict but if you can not make me this promise I will reframe from communicating with you.
That all being said.....
Yes it makes me feel that it is more of an underlying truth if we from different backgrounds and different methods come up with the same thing. OK, Next I think we need to organize our ideas a little, we talked about
1A) Religion / dogma vs spiritual ecstatic experience. Former dominates later, perhaps because of "attachment" to or fear of loss of something (for instance dead elders) whose significance would change if the religion would change. You pose the question of what is attachment, (desire, wanting , clinging .... ) basically what are the deeper fears, good question, not only a good question it may be a key question but I want to be clear of where we are before going deeper. I am elaborating on things I have thought of before - this is something new & I like the question. I do believe you are on to something but it's the sort of thing that takes time. This other stuff below like about hierarchal systems, is stuff I have already thought about so I can respond much quicker to that.
1B) There is a question of whether all religions will become dogmatic or not. When I mentioned that all will eventually become dogmatic I meant it more from a probabilistic, mathematical, standpoint. At some point-if one waits long enough, chances X will do Z - trouble is if X is the religion in mind and Z is " become dogmatic" then by the natureof dogmatism it's a one way street (maybe not????) but it seems to be & so if by some perturbation of energies religion X becomes dogmatic THEN is stays dogmatic for the rest of eternity. (Simple logic with the assumption that dogmatism is irreversible - maybe not??)
1C) If so what effects this speed? (Does it have anything to do with the other systems it interfaces with, (ie hierarchical ...) and the characteristics of the elements of those systems (ie literacy)) When deriving systems theory I like to phrase my questions asgeneral as possible. This enables me to compare very different systems to find similar characteristics. Like the similarity of a galaxy evolving and a plant growing from a seed. So then I need to ask what is hierarchical in a general sense? And literacy? LiteracyI guess is ability to communicate - interact perhaps in a "more intelligent" way. OK so what is intelligence? I guess the more intelligent would have a larger number of modes in which to communicate or even more general - to interact.
Hierarchy I think is being more ordered - like a crystal or a fascist regime. (Sorry that a crystal is so beautiful but would YOU want to be one of those atoms stuck there??) OK, in my last email I sent a bunch of shit I typed verbatim from my notes of my own system theory - some of it was a bit bogus I know but some of it is cool. One of thethings I typed there in the 'air' category little blurbs about creativity, info inertia, crystal ... Basically a more loose structure will absorb more information before responding to it. (I think I called it info inertia) I gave the example of a crystal vs a cushion. A crystal is clearly like a hierarchal system – everything has an exact place. There are not many random possibilities. The cushion the opposite. Communication in a crystal happens quick. Try it. Throw a rock on an ice covered pond and the sound goes across thefrozen surface almost immediately. Try it in the summer when the same pond is not frozen and the waves of water ripple out much slower. So things in general happen quicker in a heirarchal system. I would assume dogmatism would too. Next if the elements of that system are not literate means they do not have as many ways to communicate- kind of like the atoms in a crystal - not too many modes of expression.Well if it is something that they can understand those elements would communicate it fast ( because, like the crystal, as I sent you last, but was probably so cryptic you couldn't get it, if there are not as many modes to choose from so the communication would go faster, less choice, less info inertia. Flexibility takes time to process each possibility - flexibility has more info inertia because it has more possibilities, more choices to try out, it has more content – more depth - it is heavier -hence has more info inertia)
The problems with Crystals or heirachal systems is that though they respond quick there are not TOO many things they CAN communicate (fewer modes) But the things they can communicate do go much quicker. Under Mussilli the trains in Italy ran on time. (You have to understand that in Italy nothing was ever was on time) The other extreme has it's problems too, ofcourse. If the structure is too loose the system will fall apart.
[You may not know simple chemistry but if a solution is what they call super saturated (it if OVER saturated. Saturated so much that by the laws it should become solid but does not-) OK if that's the case all you need is a seed crystal and bang the solution immediate crystallized on that seed.}
1A) Again yes the honoring of the dead is a big piece. Keep all this in 1A and we will dissect it in time. Perhaps 1A1, 1A2, 1A3 ...
2) a new approach2A) OK so the points were made about how dogmatism infested religion by how it has the potential to change the value of what was sacrificed. And attachments to that, fear of loss of that etc etc... In this most recent email you are pointing out a more "middle road"possible approach. Suggesting that the greatest honor of the dead may not be keeping them stagnate in the collective memory but building from there- which includes the possibility of proving them false in some parts. And though their actions seem no longer fitting under the new ethic, they are honored for getting us to that point. Let mecomment that I not only agree exactly but this methodology IS used in perhaps other areas - like in science - for instance even though Newtonian mechanics has been updated and made in part irrelevant by Einstein, Newton is not only honored, he is considered very key in getting us to where we are. So I ask why do some systems go under onemode as opposed to the other. Or perhaps there are varying degrees of these 'modes'.
I love what you say - you are so right on. The therapeutic stand point: That sacrifices were not worthless because they brought us to a point of change. Let me point out that therapy is a relatively new thing compared to religion. I mean Freud was around when Hitler came to power (and was forced to make some benign statement about him,which he did in a double meaning sort of way. Good ol' Freud can be Freudian!)
2B) so maybe we need to take the methodology of therapy to a system level, as opposed to just the elements of the system. Perhaps all this therapy is like bailing out a sinking boat if the religious systems in place are anti - therapeutic. OK so my question is how dowe implement therapy on a systemic level? How do we get whole systems to evaluate & re evaluate their past? Another question is why do some systems, say the scientific community embrace belief changes better than other systems like the religious systems. Oh shit! I guess the answer is obvious. System survival again. A religion IS a set ofbeliefs, so it would have developed damm good ways to prevent beliefs from changing than say the scientific community. Even if the belief change wouldn't kill the religion, it still has it's antibodies out there just in case. The scientific community has a different set of antibodies. So I guess with religions there is a two fold effect toward dogmatism as opposed to most other systems with just the one.
OK so to continue, how do we find a middle way for the religions of the world, or rather for systems of belief. How do we get it so they re evaluate their past - without them being threatened of survival - A healing, therapeutic approach for religions to embrace their past and move on. Ha! it almost sounds like a joke! Think I'll write it on abathroom wall somewhere. Part of me believes that the right concept - maybe just & only written an a bathroom wall somewhere could ignite and change the world.
I'm just trying to think what is 'belief' in the most abstract sense. how does it differ from other systems base's........ (or maybe it doesn't??) {systems of thought, systems of belief, what else??? What are they?}
3) Normal?
Hmmm part of what you call "normal" I just call sane. " how neatly our experiences fit into our idea of how reality works" I would call normal the part of that that we gain from - well, the norm – what the others are doing. SO there is overlap between normalcy and sanity but I don't know exactly what. Yes it is a convenient map.
I have to point out that sometimes having a "map" or getting somewhere timely can save your life. My Ex grew up in Lithuania and we would get into fights along the point of normalcy all the time. But for her, growing up in harsh climate of Lithuania, not having some sense of that map of normal was not only considered insane, in could verylikely be lethal.
I like this concept of the map. I just don't call that normal. I think sanity is having the map, I think they maybe hand out the "normal map" whenever we pass go and that is the map you are referring to but we can write on it & stuff. Little notes of where Joe's housereally is. Roads we know aren't really there & other's that are that the map don't have. Or just some that are always too slow. These are things we can scribble on the normal map to make our own personal map. Of course different systems come in and pass out their own "pre- scribbled" maps and so on & so on.
"an accurate map can save time and energy", the phrase doesn't make sense to me. in this setting. Maybe I am misunderstanding something. Either you were going off a bit or maybe we have different concepts of "map". By map I thought you meant a code of conduct that is acceptable and understood. A common law that most people would agreewith. If in central square a few people gather and start to burn a forth person alive right in front of city hall, people would probably try to stop them because it disagrees with what's on their map for normal behavior. But like I say people have different maps. Maybe one passerby "knows" it is wrong because of the map given him at Gobut at some point in his life he decided that he was a Satanist or something and scribbled that over that part of his map. He then goes up to the four & suggest they come over his place where they can continue without getting get caught.
Maps mistaken for the place?? Maybe I should think about it some more but am I missing the point you are trying to make;....
OK, so that's what I get for map - give me a few examples of what you had in mind for map. I think we have slightly differing concepts. Just to point out - your bummer that others came up with stuff before you - that's the stuff I'm talking about - that's the attachment – you invested all this time thinking something & for what? Of course youcan take the therapeutic approach & realize that it gives you a better knowledge of it than someone only got it from studying Hegal. I feel that way too, of course, I was mentioning to my roommate something about my emails to you & my system theory & he told me OH, this guy came up with something like that. My reaction was more of a bummer than anything else....
4) infinite loops. maybe - whatever, ultimately anything is a possibility - so yes - it can change while producing the feedback but it is just not known what will come out. I mean give it medicine to make it into a pussy cat and it might change into a monster! That'swhy I said - just and only baby steps... monitor the changes and then maybe a little more. I mean with all it's fuck ups, it's better to have the system that we know now than some that we can't even imagine.
5) sorry I don't know kudos. Thanks for the appreciation.
Maybe we should make this rule one. Systems that exist long enough for us to notice them will have some mechanism to maintain themselves. Some of these mechanisms will act very similar to how antibodies work in an organism. They will attack that which appears to be foreign to it. Um - no the system has no reason to care about the health of the parts unless it somehow effects it's (the systems') health ( like the parts vote for things that effect the system). {seems so cold doesn't it?} The system would only care about the health of a foreign body so much as it doesn't infect other "healthy" cells. I mean that's why they try not to make martyrs out of the one's they certainly want totake out....
6) systems theory, may own creation, you may help me with it or develop it further. Never considered it anything which was even something until you started appreciating it. Never really talked to anyone about it. People are only interested about what's in their own head & almost never willing to go as deep as you. Anything of mine inthis way you may have, you may later develop it further or refute it. All I ask is that one promise I asked of you earlier.
You thinking out loud... "systems place themselves..." "see themselves..." "they worry about..." This is really personifying them, maybe they are a conscious entity I don't know but that gets to a different subject - kind of get's to meta physics - I was thinkingmore of the mechanics of them, even though (if they are a system of people) the individual parts may be thinking & worrying, I don't know if the system, this group of people somehow thinks & worries, I guess it has it's parts thinking & worrying for it in a sense...
7) opposites logic is it a tool??? { I know in some mystical belief the yin yang, the duelality is considered the beginning of form, beyond that is formless - or so they say - something to consider)
7A) tools not tools hard to say about anything so many ways to look at stuff. I'm starting to get a little fuzzy around the edges.
7B) Is divine ecstasy from a different system? I just know from my most intense spiritual experiences this world seemed empty, void, non-existent in comparison to.
We might want to renumber these, could put it with (5) the antibodies part. Also, not sure we are on the same page with maps.
OK good point -maybe the system went haywire & considers this divine ecstasy foreign. Maybe it is actually the system that is "foreign" Maybe the system itself is actually a cancer and as such is fighting off the "healing" cells, so as to preserve it's cancerous nature. Different words for the same thing.
8) Set theory. Your High school sucked. I'll teach you set theory in a 1/2 hour sometime. Actually you already figured out the most of it!
1A) again what is attachment? related to fear clinging, loss, hatred effects effect of concept, normal maps, opposites logic
10) Machiavelli. I, also, feel very negative to what he has to say. (like I said he makes me want to puke) Nevertheless, I think that he has his finger on a very big and important piece of all this. It is not limited to governments. I see people acting out his rules intheir daily lives without realizing that it is Machiavellian. Most people, in any position of power (from the teacher of a class onward...), probably even Gandhi have used some subset of his rules. Like people who say yes & mean no. The line "I'll call you later" when it's not meant from the start etc etc etc...
I'm getting a little fuzzy but I want to send this off so you don't think I croaked. Just got an other little email from you. I like processing this all with you. It's getting a bit much - maybe we should organize it some. But watch out! here we go. Organize is -you know putting some sort of hierarchy on different part of it. Making it more rigid. Making a system of it. Even the system of trying to understand the system is a system. If we don't though we just might lose it all by it being too amorphous, and it will slipaway...
So Hey, when are you back in town?As ever,Ed
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:20:05 -0800, Ed
Thinking 'bout what I wrote about hierarchal & crystals I made a mistake. hierarchal systems are ordered systems but not all ordered systems are hierarchal. Actually the crystal is one example that is very ordered but NOT hierarchal. Though highly structured all atoms in the crystal are equal. So hierarchal systems are ordered but not allordered systems are hierarchal.. We would say that hierarchal systems are a subset of ordered systems. But One could even argue that not all hierarchal systems are ordered - true - they may not be TOO ordered but that are ordered enough to keep the hierarchy in place so i will still say the rest about it that i said in the thing
Let me know what you think... love you,ed
Subject: wordsDate: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:35:58 -0800 Ed
Hi Rachel, hope you are fine. Hope my last email wasn't too much. Please do write back. here's a song a wrote a while back. Tell me what you think do let me know that you are fine how do you like this snow?Ed
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WORDSwords are empty words are cheapwords are bought and sold every week
It don't matter what you saygoing to get out and do it your way- - anywayI read the blueprint on your facethere's no reason to refabricate
words are decoys to protectwhat you don't even know that you missed
don't you know that I love you and there's no need to hidedon't you know that I love youright through your disguisewe all wear these costumes don't you know it's just for funplay games with each other, Oh but there's no need to runI can see right through you but it don't matter what I findbecause I love you don't you know.......Love Is Blind
words are empty words are cheapwords are bought and sold every week
I read the blueprint on your facethere's no reason to refabricate
words are powerful when in synchwith these fluid motions we think
words can change lives words can healwhen expressing emotions we feel
c 1994 ages

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 04:05:16 +0000, Rachel
Yeah, I'm fine. I've been slaughtering myself on this uberpaper I'm writing, so I hadn't checked my email in a few days which was unfortunate, but at least my paper's really starting to kick ass. It's basically about propaganda cycles and female imagery in China, tracking it over the past 100 years. I'm finding a couple really, really cool things: that there was propaganda targeting women specifically to try and get them to act a certain way, and that there was also propaganda using female imagery to try and get the nation as a whole act in a certain way. Kind of the upshot of all this is that occasionally the dual priorities of this marketing are in conflict, but often the government tried to influence the nation as a whole through influencing women specifically (their work habits, dress, ideology, etc.), and create a marketing campaign not through just the traditional media (radio, television, plays, novels, ads, etc.) but through the way the nation's women were living their everyday lives. That's it in a nutshell. But the other thing is WOW, I really was fascinated by the bit you sent me about hierarchy and crystals, and how ordered systems aren't necessarily hierarchical. I'm still digesting your notes on systems theory, but it's all starting to gel I think. Take care,Rachel

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:25:53 -0800, Ed
Thanks for getting back to me Rachel, yeah sometimes I go off in my own head. I've been busy with my thing here. Found a couple bugs. In one case the compiler was actually dividing two numbers wrong. I mean they were different formats but it was suppose to know and translate them automatically but I guess I didn't so I added a couple lines where it did it explicitly and then go on and it works fine. The other bug wasthe case of the double negative, if it came to one bad result that I was avoiding I had it intentionally make it negative. I had forgotten that I did that before somewhere else, so later those two multiplied together and became positive!! So the program kept looping around these false positives. But anyway they are gone now & it seems to be working fine..
That's interesting about China. Kind of wondering what this propaganda is but then maybe wouldn't be so interesting if I know. Hmmm female imagery.... funny in a way it is easier to notice these things in a foreign culture. In our own culture we wouldn't notice. Nothing bad or intentional it's just that we grow up in a way to assume all that isnormal - things we wrote about "what is normal" & how the culture effects that - endless loop I called it, maps you talked about...
crystals/hierarchyYeah that's the beauty of system theory, you get to compare totally different systems as to get ideas like: "hey why not" that one just could not living in one mono culture - because of the very reasons I mentioned above - our minds are so accustomed to seeing things acertain way - kind of like your map idea (though I think we have different concept of that) so looking at crystals - or even this stuff in China - we can see stuff that we are just so trained not to see when looking at our own culture.
So yeah, I'm wondering too, if rocks can do it why can't we??? OK we need some level of organization or the system collapses but maybe it doesn't need to be hierarchal! maybe - now I'm thinking is there some system in the animal kingdom that is ordered but not hierarchal?? Bee's have their queen, wolves have their alpha. I'm wondering in a fishschool does it matter which is the lead fish or does it matter - do they switch off, maybe??? and on birds migrating, again does it mater which is the lead bird or- again do they switch off. Now in the plant (or mineral) kingdom I can think of non hierarchal systems - like moss growing - trees in the forest, the list is endless, I'm wondering why itis much more likely in one kingdom than the other???? Just thinking - I think I got to figure out what a general term for hierarchy is and why it inhabits the animal kingdom more than the plant kingdom, OK so it is a subset of ordered - I'm just brainstorming....
I think it has something to do with movement -autonomous movement. No??? Plants don't move so none of this leader stuff comes up. Planets move but by the laws of gravity not autonomously... now can we think of anything besides animals that have the ability to propel themselves by their own decisions. Huh - the brain comes in I think, decisions - I suppose we could make some computer network but I'm more interested in what has naturally occurred in nature - what besides animals think???
Anyway so I'm thinking that hierarchy has something to to with autonomous movement and /or thinking just brainstorming....
You know even the birds & fish even if they trade off there is still one that is the leader for a while. I'm thinking that if there is movement we have no choice - there must be hierarchy BUT - this whole trading off thing ...
That may be the key -- it's such a strain to be the lead bird because they cut all the wind for the other's - I suppose there might be some ego thing in it for them but it's so hard that they MUST trade off. That might be the key - In our human systems that trading off stuff doesn't happen because there is this (sort of un natural) endless loop thing going where the lead human can subvert the system to it's own gain. That's I think the problem with these human systems as opposed to the bird systems. food for thought - tell me when your back from china ...as evered)*(
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:22:27 -0800, Ed
Rachel,
It was nice going back & forth with you last week. I would love to do it again. Just want you to know that I am always looking forward to your deep and critical response.
So Hey! I just met this woman at a cafe' & she's studying religion & medicine, doing this study on Christian woman who have abortions & how it affects their beliefs. Some of the women have protested against abortion at the very clinic where they later had their’s.Interesting stuff. I was sort of looking for some simple summary to take home with me, and on that note it seems that the abortions made the women move more to the middle. (Atheistic women considered the possibility of more spirituality the more religious considered less extreme points.) Hopefully, she'll will email me the resultswhen done...
So anyway stay in touch.,, Any news from China??? Want to check out Amsterdam this summer????
stay in touch..
As ever.Ed )*(
Oh, and speaking of places, I grew up in Leominster,. pioneer plasticcity,check out my song...

PLASTIC CITY
I was born in plastic city with a toothbrush in my mouthIt was there in plastic city where I learnt what life's aboutplastic city's everywhere plastic in the skyplastic in my underwear plastic in my mine
plastic decays I'm sure it will -- but it takes a long long timeplastic decays I'm sure it will -- but it takes a long long time
paper trash metal and glass all rot away pretty soonbut plastic will last much longer than that - we'll pile it all up tothe moonyou can eat your peanut-butter out of a plastic canbut you can't get the love you need out of a plastic manmy father owned a factory and he made lots of stuffhe made plastic packages that other folks threw out
plastic decays I'm sure it will -- but it takes a long long timeplastic decays I'm sure it will -- but it takes a long long time
I walk alone the streets of home - plastic everywherewhat kind of luck will clean it up when everyone don't careI cry about a plastic world but nothing seems to changeWe'll mold our soul right into it 'till we all think the same
plastic decays I'm sure it will -- but it takes a long long timeplastic decays I'm sure it will -- but it takes a long long time

c 1983 ages